Anwaar
Administrator
Speak the truth and keep on coming.
Posts: 463
|
Post by Anwaar on Oct 9, 2005 1:26:48 GMT 4
A plan of action is welcome jebeltariq as long as it does not incite to violence. Please start a new thread or start right here if you so want.
|
|
|
Post by jebeltariq on Oct 9, 2005 2:49:54 GMT 4
Anwaar Assalaamu Aleikum.
It is always refreshing to hear from you. Fortunately I am not American and consequently when it comes to US affairs such as those that are oft mentioned in this forum (and which subsequently effect the rest of the world), I can only offer my views. I am not equipped with the legal/constitutional tools to do anything about its leadership as the Americans are. I merely want to know what they (the Americans) are doing about it. A leadership that they have put in place and is using their hard-earned money, nay their own sons and daughters, to commit acts of tyranny, barbarism and mass-murder on an massive scale for material gain. Are they able to organise themselves effectively to subjugate this beast? If not , may I suggest that they stop paying their taxes or remitting any monies in the form of registration, licences, VAT etc for a start?
Regarding your comments about violence... I find your stand rather unrealistic as although I deplore bloodshed being a muslim, my Deen (creed) requires me to take necessary steps should my life, property or family (and by extension community) be unjustly threatened. Suffice it to say that blood has been spilt, honour stripped and property destroyed.
My Deen forbids me to turn the other cheek or not to act to prevent such injustice from happening.
Salaams jebeltariq
|
|
|
Post by jay paulson on Oct 10, 2005 1:51:11 GMT 4
09 Oct
"Regarding your comments about violence... I find your stand rather unrealistic as although I deplore bloodshed being a muslim, my Deen (creed) requires me to take necessary steps should my life, property or family (and by extension community) be unjustly threatened. Suffice it to say that blood has been spilt, honour stripped and property destroyed"
I'd like to comment briefly on this statement found in the previous post.
As it happens I suppose I'm what some people would call a pacifist--probably "an unrealistic pacifist". I won't deny or affirm that label; I think labels are most often used to hide from you the fact that the person labeled is your brother/sister/neighbor.
As it happens, also, I would probably avoid the use of violence in any circumstance I might imagine; I say "probably," because none of us can be absolutely sure of what the future will bring to us.
Now in the statement quoted above we hear one say that violence should be used in certain circumstances in light of one's creed. The question of religion or creed is immaterial to me. What's important is the fact that violence is to be limited to defence of "my life, property or family (and by extension community"). And I have to admire that conviction, that firm as a rock conviction.
It makes, to my mind, a certain kind of sense. That is, so long as by "community" is meant a tangible, meaningful entity--like self, like family. Something you can see and touch--your immediate village. And not a meaningless abstraction like nation, fatherland, church--or global village. If one commits violence for an idea or an ideal--no matter how lofty: to end war, to make the world safe for democracy, then one is a simple puppet manipulated by greedy masters.
|
|
|
Post by jebeltariq on Oct 11, 2005 1:55:33 GMT 4
Jay,
My creed, which should not be relegated to a "religon", permits violence in very specific circumstances in which violence has been used against my self, my family, community and property, when there is no recourse to a system of justice, and even in these cases, only in a defensive manner, never in a vengeful manner, and always limited to containing if not eliminating the threat.
My creed forbids the forceful imposition of my thoughts and concepts upon others not like-minded, but if intellectually challenged, requires me to engage in similar debate to defend it. It requires me to avail the requisite knowledge to those interested in studying it and to open my arms in the embrace of brotherhood to those willing and ready to accept it.
May my Lord forgive me if I have erred in my elucidation.
|
|
|
Post by jay paulson on Oct 12, 2005 2:58:51 GMT 4
11oct
I don’t know if it’s necessary for me to clarify the statement I made above, but I’ll clarify it to make sure there is no mistaking my meaning.
I admire Jebeltariq and the stance he takes in regard to his projected use of violence, and this admiration arises despite my profound convinced feeling, if not knowledge, that violence as a response to any situation is nonproductive.
If George Bush, and his allies, and his American patriots, were to live by a creed similar to the one elucidated by Jebeltariq the genocide and ruin of Iraq, Palestine and other regions could never have occurred.
|
|
leon
Junior Member
Posts: 38
|
Post by leon on Oct 12, 2005 5:44:40 GMT 4
11oct I admire Jebeltariq and the stance he takes in regard to his projected use of violence, and this admiration arises despite my profound convinced feeling, if not knowledge, that violence as a response to any situation is nonproductive. If George Bush, and his allies, and his American patriots, were to live by a creed similar to the one elucidated by Jebeltariq the genocide and ruin of Iraq, Palestine and other regions could never have occurred. Well said jay.
|
|
|
Post by jebeltariq on Oct 13, 2005 0:52:41 GMT 4
Gentlemen, I fully understood every word of Jay's post. I merely got carried away and further elaborated. I thank you for your support and cannot help but think of you as as brothers in spirit.
|
|
dana
Junior Member
Posts: 30
|
Post by dana on Oct 15, 2005 21:50:32 GMT 4
This is an essential discussion that must be nourished and followed. It needs insights from all angles.
Jebeltariq noted:
"I merely want to know what they (the Americans) are doing about it. A leadership that they have put in place and is using their hard-earned money, nay their own sons and daughters, to commit acts of tyranny, barbarism and mass-murder on an massive scale for material gain. Are they able to organise themselves effectively to subjugate this beast?"
Precisely, Jebeltariq. US foreign policy has been a problem since its inception, but it has brought us to a major crossroads at this point. I can't presume to have answers, myself. All anyone can do at this point is galvanize opinion in hopes of arriving at collective plans for action. My impression is that the American people are going to need major support from beyond their borders in order to help them overcome what amounts to a deep-rooted state of collective denial. That they've arrived at mass occultation of the obvious has been carefully calculated; it is no accident.
In order that our thoughts and ideas not finish in local dead-ends, I suggest that we create a forum subject dedicated specifically to problem-defining and problem-solving.
Jay, Jebeltariq, might this be a reasonable way to proceed?
|
|
|
Post by jay paulson on Oct 16, 2005 20:44:23 GMT 4
Sunday 16 Oct
RE: “Jay, Jebeltariq, might this be a reasonable way to proceed?”
Good idea, Dana—we could look at the problem and consider possible solutions. I ‘ll wait for further information and/or instructions.
|
|
|
Post by jebeltariq on Oct 17, 2005 1:02:19 GMT 4
Ladies & Gentlemen,
May I suggest, therefore, that first we familiarize ourselves with the mind of the foe? May I go on futher to suggest that we pick up the following books: 1. The Prince (Nicolo Machiavelli) 2. The Art of War (Tsun Tzu) 3. Year 501: The conquest continues... (Noam Chomsky) ?
|
|
dana
Junior Member
Posts: 30
|
Post by dana on Oct 18, 2005 1:34:26 GMT 4
I've had to apply myself to putting out local "fires", lately. Apologies for not to having been back to comment on the follow-ups more quickly. 'Hasn't been for lack of want.
Perhaps we could agree that a general 'International' discussion area might be useful, dealing with topics that go beyond chronic US-related issues, and that would remain very general, not subdivided into subthreads, in order that we might confront issues head-on, collectively.
A top-level forum discussion of the likes could be divided into two parts: a) definition of problems and b) proposals for solutions, with a third part c) for suggested reading — all under the banner of 'General International Views'.
Shall we request that such a space be created?
[This is a request to monitors, unless Jay, Jebeltariq or others have further remarks to make]
amitiés
|
|
Anwaar
Administrator
Speak the truth and keep on coming.
Posts: 463
|
Post by Anwaar on Oct 18, 2005 3:03:40 GMT 4
Please`tell me if the 'General World affairs' board is not enough. I will be only too glad to provide the requisite board.
Anwaar
|
|
|
Post by jay paulson on Oct 18, 2005 20:16:13 GMT 4
18 Oct
Re: Boards, Topics, Threads
Not having any experience in these matters I have no comments or suggestions to make.
Having watched, however, hand weavers at work on their looms I've observed that too many threads can lead to annoying tangles.
I do look forward to the discussion Dana suggested.
|
|
cmr
Junior Member
Posts: 25
|
Post by cmr on Oct 23, 2005 3:56:36 GMT 4
Does any one here (on this forum) have a plan of action on how to go about changing the situation or is it just restricted to dissemination of information?jebeltariq I am in 100% agreement, with jebeltariq. While the dissemination of information, is vital to understand one's self, and Culture. Action is vital to just Survive, one's own, Culture, let alone the neighbors. Indeed brother, a plan of action is in order. I do believe dana is headed in the right direction, take a look at her post in, General World Affairs. Looks to be the way to go. General International Views. « Thread Started on Oct 19, 2005, 3:15am » Anwaar's gentle observation that 'we need one another now more than ever before' is true on a number of levels: in the sense that 'we are in this together.' — Indeed, but also insofar as everyones input will be necessary first to pinpoint the most urgent challenges humanity faces 'not as easy as it may seem' and second to begin defining potential solutions to them. — Each of us is straddled with the task of sifting through immense quantities of information and 'disinformation' in an attempt to see a bigger picture. An impossible undertaking for any one person, in sum.
I would like to recommend that we use this section as an experimental, informal 'sketch pad' where for the sake of fluidity of debate we keep contributions relatively succinct and avoid the accumulation of threads; where the comments we post reflect our personal viewpoints, impressions and even intuitions as 'far-fetched' as they may seem and at the risk that, upon peer review, they be shown incorrect.
Rather than provide cast-iron arguments, contributors to this section should be encouraged to risk speculation and to suggest new ways of seeing and 'responding' to the problems we face.
A forum in order that we might confront issues head-on, a definition of problems while offering proposals for solutions and suggested reading, beyond that of chronic US-related issues. ~ dana
|
|
michelle
Administrator
I have broken any attachments I had to the Ascended Masters and their teachings; drains your chi!
Posts: 2,100
|
Post by michelle on Nov 3, 2005 6:39:41 GMT 4
Hey jebeltariq, You previously asked: Oct 9, 2005, 2:03am Does any one here (on this forum) have a plan of action on how to go about changing the situation or is it just restricted to dissemination of information? jebeltariq Apparently, some citizens from the state of Vermont have formulated a plan to declare their secession from the United States, and offer their solution to other people in the United States. On October 28, 2005, they held THE VERMONT INDEPENDENCE CONVENTION. The following is a statement regarding the convention: "It is not by chance alone that on October 28, the Second Vermont Republic will hold the first statewide convention on secession in the United States since North Carolina voted to secede from the Union on May 20, 1861. The objectives of the convention are twofold. First, to raise the level of awareness of Vermonters of the feasibility of independence as a viable alternative to a nation which has lost its moral authority and is unsustainable. Second, to provide an example and a process for other states and nations which may be seriously considering separatism, secession, independence, and similar devolutionary strategies." Thomas H. Naylor September 5, 2005 A Declaration of Independence by the People of the Sovereign State of Vermont:www.vermontrepublic.org/writings/vtdeclaration.html [snip]: Let the reasons for Vermont independence be submitted openly before the world.
Vermont is small, rural, democratic, peaceful, communitarian, egalitarian, and independent. Vermont has suffered, as have other states, from the debilitating effects of big business, big government, and big agriculture. Its people have seen big markets deliver inferior goods and produce. They have been burdened with technology that is inappropriate to their needs.
Since Vermont became the fourteenth state of the Union, the United States government has become too big, too centralized, too powerful, too intrusive, too materialistic, too impersonal, too grasping, too militarized, too imperialistic, too violent, too undemocratic, too corrupt, and too unresponsive to the needs of individual citizens and small communities. National and Congressional elections are sold to the highest bidder. State and local governments assume too little responsibility for the well-being of their citizens - too often abdicating their responsibilities to Washington.
The free people of Vermont have reached a turning point: whether to fight for "liberty and justice" or to trade in their heritage for the shackles known as progress. It is not progress. It is comfort. It is an illusion.
We, the people, here assembled choose "liberty and justice," and we reject a system of intrusive federal control that is antithetical to a prosperous way of life, and to the well being of a sovereign state. This is not such an unusual plan of action. A few years ago, a town near where I live tried to secede from the state. I do not know how many or who was involved in their plan, only that it was covered briefly on the news. Desperate times call for desperate measures Would anyone care to comment on this: Is Vermont's attempt an impossible dream or a vision of the future? Michelle 11/02/05
|
|